For arguments sake: the 700 and 800 numbers: (728) 736 738

For arguments sake: the 700 and 800 numbers.

This idea sprang from thoughts about missing numbers in the following topic but I think it will head in a different direction so I'm starting a new one.
http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t5292-missing-shapes-discussion

I have been reviewing Crown Lynn numbering, as seen in the forum galleries, and I have reached a conclusion which I present here for comment.

One can see the sense of numbering vases etc, as descriptions would be unwieldy and open to interpretation, but if you are only making one or two cup shapes etc as Crown Lynn did in the early days then descriptions would suffice and a numbering system would only become necessary as sufficient different shapes appeared.

Vase shapes have numbers impressed because they were given numbers as they were produced. Not so most of the tableware in the 700 and 800 range. I do not think those numbers even existed when many of the shapes were first made. There are some items within this range that do have impressed numbers so that is the easiest way to show that I am wrong. A good idea of date will be required.

If, as I believe, the 700 and 800 numbers only came into existence in the mid- to late-1950s this could explain the lack of numbers for items that were no longer in production, or whose shapes had already been updated when the numbers were allotted.

Consider: the Empire Games mug, Coronation mug, and various dinnerware the shapes of which have already been superseded ... Ambrico Paris and the finer 1950s cups and saucers, including that troublesome shallow six inch saucer!

I welcome comment.

Heheee you know how to get my attention Jeremy

Ok lets see what info I can find, as I like data and stuff.
Looking at Richard Quinn's records I see he has added First Made dates to some items:
700 - Railway Cup - 1959 [Bear in mind this is not the original Railway Cup]
715 - Tankard Jug - 1960
728 - Beaker - 1962
730 - Hotel Plates Rimmed - 1964
731 - Hotel Oatmeal Rimmed - 1964
769 - Small Oatmeal [Fruit Saucer] - 1959
771 - Flatware [Coupe Shape] - 1959
772 - Fruit Dish - 1961
778 - Electric Jug Body - 1961
788 - Ridged Casserole - 1962
790 - Plates - 1962
805 - Saucer - 1960
806 - Jug - 1961
812 - Mustard pot & Lid - 1962
821 - Sm Ribbed Vase - 1962
839 - Yank Jug - 1959
840 - Yank Sugar Bowl - 1959
849 - Square Jugs - 1963
850 - Casserole - 1960
852 - Scallop and Lid -1959
857 - Gravy Boat [Something ?] - 1960
859 - Sm Coffee Cup - 1960
862 - Light Rose - 1962
867 - Shaving Mug Old Spice - 1962
877 - Coffee Pot - 1962

Such an interesting exercise ..... I think Richard got these dates from the Modellers Log Book 1959 to 1964 that the Museum has a copy of and I will check this out at some stage.  Edits to add that yes these dates match up with the Log Book.  I will add them to the Galleries and check for more as I recognise shapes and can find their numbers from the little drawings and add them to this list as well.  

This entrée dish is numbered 765 - not sure of the era, but it feels vitrified -
http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/gallery/Crown-Lynn-Shapes-01-881/700-to-799/765-8v-9e-10y-12y-pic_2672.htm

Now what about this exception ...
738 stamped dish from Val that is in the 1949 Crown Lynn Film -
http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/gallery/Crown-Lynn-Shapes-01-881/700-to-799/738-pic_5179.htm

I'm glad you're enjoying this, Ev.

You'll be pleased to hear that I wrote a lot of stuff in reply then lost it by pressing the wrong button ...  Easier reading at the end if the day!

I hope I get a few other comments.

The most interesting thing for me in your reply was where the date information came from: the 1959 to 1964 Modellers Log Book.

Is there any significant document that precedes that?

Jeremy Ashford wrote:

The most interesting thing for me in your reply was where the date information came from: the 1959 to 1964 Modellers Log Book.

Is there any significant document that precedes that?

Sparrow Industries took photos for Ambrico of their vases in the early 1940's and the number was displayed in front of each vase, which was fantastic for us to use to identify vase shapes.  I think there were about 50 shapes .... not 100% sure about that, but I could easily find that info.

There is the Old Numbers in General records which cover 4 to 881 descriptions.

Plus Maori Old Numbers [Not to be confused with New Numbers] 1001 to 1043.
This is the Wharetana Ware.

Then there are the Four Digit Number Records which end in 1984.

Many of the shapes have drawings or photos in one of the Modellers books and I was lucky enough to see this artefact recently.  I checked it thoroughly and we are only missing one page of shapes and I hope to soon add these to our site.

These are all under the Crown Lynn Shape Guide at the Museum and are copied from Modeller Tam Mitchells books, by permission of Mng C Harvey and Dir Tom Clark 1984.

None of these records are complete I would like to add and it is an endless quest to fill in the gaps, which is ongoing thanks to members of this site.

Edits to add that I forgot to mention catalogues that turn up from time to time, which is the best when it comes to identification and I have a few of these, though the earliest would be from 1960's.

The 765 noted above is so far the only numbered piece (number on it) documented as pre-1959, so far, but if there is anything (else) in the Sparrow photos with 700 or 800 numbers displayed that could be a problem for my proposition.

I know Jim's 830 teapot has numbers but unfortunately that is not in the list from Richard Quinn's records. Any ideas on a date from styling and numbering style?

I'm going to be away from this for a couple of days, and although I will be in Auckland tomorrow I will not have time to go to the Museum. (One day, or one week ...!)

As I do not have personal access to the records I need to read over Val and Gail's books again to get a general feel for what was happening at Crown Lynn in the 1940s and 1950s that such a strangely arranged record (the 700 and 800 numbers) could have come into being.

Thanks for working on this with me Ev.

If you have any alternative ideas about the 700s and 800s please don't hesitate ...

I see a 736 for sale complete with number AND very early made in New Zealand stamp confirming that that number was in use before 1950. You might think that would be enough to shut me up, but I still think there may have been some loss of records in the big fire (or a similar event) and a re-compilation of the 700 and 800 numbers following that. This could account for some apparent number duplicates!

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Pottery-glass/Porcelain-pottery/Crown-Lynn/Bowls-dishes/auction-759667986.htm

See the third photo. Faint number but I could read it. It's not as though I have memorised them all: I checked the gallery to confirm what I saw.

I have put a bid on this but I'm not greatly tempted to test the reserve.

-----

New subject: 728 beaker.

Richard's first date numbering for this one, as seen above is 1962, but Ev's example has a 48-55 backstamp:

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t3181-precious-old-728-children-s-beaker-cup#10015

Does anyone have a newer (ie 1960s) one?

Yes, yes Jeremy .... these double up numbers give me nightmares!

Now regarding the 728, I feel like I've done this before, but never mind.
This is where I got the 728 shape from and I don't have a date for this poster....



However there is a beaker 2nd row, in this other shape which looks more recent and I just so wish that there were numbers on these !

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t60-tableware-shapes

Jeremy thats brillant info on 736 there has always been some doubt.. as the numbers are a bit different on my 736 (lean more than most CL numbers). thanks heaps   

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Pottery-glass/Porcelain-pottery/Crown-Lynn/Cups-saucers/auction-759312549.htm

I see you already have a picture in the rattling topic: no 8

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t4584-rattling-those-cups#16277

Do we have a backstamp on that one to get an idea of age?

The auction beaker sits on a colour glaze saucer with a late backstamp but no guarantees they have always been together. The grooved handle on the mug looks earlier, but then again I may have seen similar on later mugs - don't remember.

Ev, do you know whether Richard's (1962) dating for 728 comes from number or shape description or image?

------ a bit later on ------

Ev, I had a quick look at the tableware shapes guides you linked to and from the other shapes there I'm thinking the alternative beaker should also have a three digit number.

(It's a bit bothersome that the galleries are not loading properly for me.)

Jeremy there is a note at the end of Richard's Crown Lynn Shape Guide that says:
1. Dates are assigned on basis of pottery records; generally either from the modeller's daybook or the "Shapes and No's Book" kept by the modellers. A few are from Crown Lynn catalogues.

We are very sorry about the galleries not showing all of the photos at the moment and are trying to validate if they have gone for good or will come back. I have a very strong feeling that they have vanished since we had trouble last week getting the site to load. This happened several years ago and I had to reload every photo that was in the gallery. Bear with us please Jeremy.

(As I am without iPad at the moment and have to get up to make posts I'm being a little lazy and not making a full search here.)

736 and 738 have been written about as being oddly placed in the numbering system, not necessarily for chronological reasons but simply because they look so different from the shapes of neighbouring numbers.

I've been having a quiet evening reading my growing collection of NZ pottery and related books, including my recently acquired Gail Henry 2.

In her caption for a photograph of Ambrico Paris, Gail (page 192) writes:

" ... and the dinner plate, which has '738' incised on the base."

I don't know Gail's writing well enough to know whether her use of the word "incised" could be interchangeable with "impressed", but for what it's worth here is another shape with a 738 on it.

What it might mean I have no idea. I posted something above from a trademe ad that had 736 impressed along with an Ambrico stamp (pinwheel dish), indicating that number had been in use in that shape a long time. (That number is also allotted to a plain, presumably later, vitrified butter dish.) I expect the 738 (ruffle edged dish dates) from the same time (as the first 736).

Just adding this for thoroughness. (It may have been noted elsewhere.)

With all the work Ev and the team have been doing this last year or so I thought it time to update here.

One of the major ideas about Crown Lynn numbering to start gelling into something meaningful and useful is that:

CROWN LYNN REUSED ITS SHAPE NUMBERS WHEN SHAPES WERE DEEMED OBSOLETE AND THOSE NUMBERS WERE NEEDED FOR NEW SHAPES

With that now established, I can happily recant earlier hypotheses about how and when the 700 numbers came into use. Suffice to say now that I am happy to accept that the 700s, overall, had been used from quite early on, although individual new shapes with 700 numbers were still being added into the 1960s (780, 781, 782, 783 for example). Some are obvious examples of number reuse, others less obvious.

What is also becoming clear from dates annotating gallery shape numbers (from various reliable documents) is that reuse of numbers became a necessity in about 1959, a date that features regularly, and from memory the earliest.

Unfortunately CL records from prior to about 1959 have not yet surfaced which leaves us doubting shapes with clear numberings but without identifiable Crown Lynn marks such as kettles numbered 782 and 785. I believe CL had a range of kettle shapes from 778 through to 785 which had become obsolete and thus had their numbers reused. Some already appear on the forum and others can be seen on the Aussie kettle site.

That covers the 700s, but the 800s is a different matter.
Can anyone identify a piece with an 800s number that appeared before 1959 (or so)?
If so, then please share.
If not, then can we assume the 800 shape numbers were not used until the late 1950s?

.

As there are many more avenues of research to do I don't like to assume anything Jeremy until all of the resources have been checked out. So far we have only found numbers in the 400's and 700's that have been used twice, but not that many and there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for this yet. Why didn't they use the 900 series instead of reusing old numbers or make use of the 200 series which has hardly been used?
We are making progress regarding the reused numbers though and I'm happy with that at this stage.

From the NZ on Film Crown Lynn in 1949 I was able to find many shapes that were made at that time.
189
190
77
61
709
773
774
738
756
101
777
768
707
757
715
65
98
100
99
761
733/760
I have added this time frame to each of these numbers in the Gallery.