demitasse

I have just unpacked four demitasse duos, in plain white, that have probably been boxed since my mother died 20 years ago.

They have the same shape as the Regal Potteries set mrnarna posted in May. That is his photo below.


Is this shape 773?

In my set, one cup and saucer each have a 1943 to 1950  Made in New Zealand back stamp and the other three have no stamp on cup and the 1948-55 cursive or variant on saucer (I can't distinguish which).

(See: Crown Lynn Backstamps and Stickers page 2)
http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/gallery/Crown-Lynn-Backstamps-and-Stickers/Crown-Lynn-Backstamps-and-Stickers-cat_c20.htm

I also have, from my own  more recent collecting two slightly smaller Blue Tango demi-saucers with the Gibsons & Patterson back stamp for which am image was supplied by vstrong from TradeMe


Two demi-duos currently on trademe pair a vitrified cup or saucer with non-vitrified saucer or cup.

ycart3 has a "Blue Tango Demitasse Cup & Saucer" which pairs a blue colour glaze cup with blue tango saucer which I take to be similar to mine.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/cups-saucers/auction-622386518.htm

vstrong's "Crown Lynn DB Demitasse Cup & Saucer" appear to be matched yet the saucer has a green Crown Lynn New Zealand Vitrified stamp (Backstamps etc page 3), and the cup, in the old shape has a 1948 to 1955 back stamp (page 2).

http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/cups-saucers/auction-622069018.htm

bodnz has a pair of "very collectable Crown Lynn
- small cups & saucers" in the pattern Trentham which appear to be a supervitrified adaptation of mrnarna's demi shape shown above.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/cups-saucers/auction-620266550.htm

Elsewhere on trademe I see a Roydon Tiny Tots cup that appears to be the same shape as ycart3's Blue Tango Demitasse Cup. Were Tiny Tots demis with patterns designed to appeal to kids?

The Forum has given me some answers about my mother's demis, that is, when they were made, and maybe the shape number, but I'd like to know more about demis in general. Can anyone help?

Jeremy,
Looked at the DB example that you gave the link to and notice that it has a different
insignia to those previously posted for DB.

Sorry can't add much else to the demitasse story except that I prefer my coffee as a short black in a demitasse.

I have a collection of about a dozen mainly English from my pre-Crown Lynn collecting days, the most exotic a pair of black Limoge with gold trim.

You could be right saying that this shape is the 773. I've excluded it as a possibility because of that 'flick' at the top of the handle ..... but it's such a shocking photo example and it may even be there - everything else matches ..... just need a couple of others to agree.
Link to the 773 shape -
http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/gallery/Crown-Lynn-Shapes-Gallery/700-to-799/773-pic_1950.htm

Aww these are just so cute aren't they !!!
I saw my first demi and bought it the other day and couldn't believe how small they are.



I must add that I got this cute cup from a Café at the Corbans Art Centre where every piece of crockery they used was Crown Lynn and they even had some for sale. The fridge jug used as a vase was stunning and by the way the food was fantastic! I will add the name when I find that info !

Yes I agree, this feels right for 773 & 774 for its matching saucer.
I have these & the handles vary..   
The diameter of the older middle two slightly bigger as well...

Do all of those little darlings feel like they are made of vitrified clay Kat?
My one feels like it is vitrified and I'm struggling to find the correct number as Earthenware and Vitrified Ware use different number sequences. Perhaps they were made in both of the clay mediums ? It doesn't look like Crown Lynn used the term demitasse.

The outer cups are probably vitrified but not the two in the middle they are thinner & have the old gold Crown Lynn in litallics backstamp.

MAYFAIR vitrified demitasse & saucer.
I don't see Mayfair in the patterns gallery.


This cup will be a 3633. The description says "Small Coffee Cup was 773.

Clearly the 733 shape number included the vitrified demitasse then but probably also the earthenware, as the 774 was the matched saucer, and the vitrified saucer had a separate number, 734.

This cup is a different shape from the earlier demitasse. I don't know whether the saucer shape changed too. I don't think I have any 734s but I will dig out my Blue Tango demi-saucers sometime and check them against these. I think the cup for them was a mini-fatbum.

This saucer will be a 4634, described as "Coffee Saucer as 734".

Correction. My assigning of four digit shape numbers to this duo was premature. Although they date from after the establishment of the 4-d system they are still 773 and 774 shapes.

Thanks Jeremy, it's weird that we don't have Mayfair in the Gallery, as I'm very familiar with it .....?
I struggle with these demitasse cups because of the different handles, the Museum pic of a 773 has a smooth and rounded handle, whereas I have them with a 'flick' on the handle.  The one in the photo of the New Vitrified Range from 1968 has the same handle as your Mayfair one.  They were made in Earthenware and Vitrified ware, but I can only find the vitrified ones in the records.
If only they had dates for these in the records it would help with the big picture, but there are no dates at all.
There is the Modellers Log that I could look through to see if these are mentioned, but the log only covers five years from 1959 to 1964.
As there appears to be just the one demitasse cup shape, but with 3 different handles, I will add your pics to the Gallery for the 3633 and the vitrified saucer 4634.
The 859 and the 734 must be the earthenware numbers, so I will take pics of my littlies for those shapes.  773 and 774 appear to be the early vitrified shape numbers!!!  Good Grief I think they might be sorted except for the four digit earthenware numbers .... Edits to add that it's as clear as MUD! I'm still confused!
If more info comes to light we can always change things.

Ev,
I think the early saucer numbers are straightforward as 734 is spelled out as "Vit Coffee Saucer as 774"' so 774 is E/W and 734 is Vit.

The cups are more tricky as it APPEARS that 773 covers both Vit and E/W.
I admit that I totally missed 859 "Sm Coffee Cup", but wonder if this might be the small version of the South Pacific cup that also fits demitasse saucers.

I have only the gallery pic for 773 to go on and to me it looks ambiguous as to blip.
A larger picture may give more info. We have no cups in any of the demitasse links that don't have blips, so if there are any on the forum I have not located them.

And yes, I was amazed not to see Mayfair in the gallery as it is so familiar.

I just located my Blue Tango saucers. I have added a pic now.
They are vitrified and the same shape as the Mayfair ones.
They have a Gibsons & Paterson backstamp with the number 6 for 1966
The Mayfair saucers have no number but the cups have a 9 for 1969.


I don't have any early vitrified saucers for demis so I cannot compare the shapes.

The Four Digit records start with the old Three Digit numbers and I haven't cross referenced these yet!
774 is in the Flatware E/W records !
774 Coffee Saucer
734 is in the Flatware Vit records as
734 as 774 Coffee Saucer

773 is in the Cups Vit
773 Small Coffee Cup
859 is in the E/W Cups
859 Coffee Cup

Do you see why I am confused? ARrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhh!
If all of that makes sense, then I need help!

Yes I sure do Ev!

It would appear to make sense that two adjacent numbers (773, 774) form a duo yet one is in E/W records and one in Vit.

As 859 is in earthenware it suggests that it is the blip-handle early demis but it just doesn't make a lot of sense.

As usual I just make my guesses based on the info I get to see and you have more that adds confusion. Thanks for posting all that info.

I need to get hold of one of the mini-fatbums just to reassure myself that I'm not imagining it, then go looking for a number to suit. I'm pretty sure it will be a vit as the saucers are.

In the meantime I think maybe Kat's Tango Blue demitasse (3633 shape) might display nicely on a Blue Tango saucer.

One thing is clear to me .....
All of the Vitrified demi's seem to have that same fat frumpy handle which makes it easily identifiable.
So would that make your Mayfair duo a 773 vit small coffee cup with a 734 vitrified  coffee saucer ?

In short NO. For the long version read on.

If you refer to Kat's post above ...

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t3788-demitasse#13103

... you will see two DB demis. The lower of them is clearly a vitrified, but the top one IS vitrified TOO.

Kat has given me one of them. It has a bright green Crown Lynn New Zealand Vitrified backstamp, the same colour as the DB mark on the side.


The handle is pretty much identical to the earthenware ones in shape but slightly smaller both vertically and laterally bot not noticeably thicker or heavier.

The bowl of the vit cup is about 2mm shorter than the E/W and possibly as much as 2mm smaller in outside diameter. The body is slightly thicker and heavier.

It is, however, identical in height and outside diameter to the "later" vitrified demi, which is thicker and heavier again. (ie smaller INSIDE diameter.)

I do not know enough about the pottery process to know whether the differences between the E/W demi and the early vit one are attributable to the nature of the various clays, or if they are simply two distinct "shapes" from different moulds.

---------
30/3/14
RNZAF duo.

No mark on cup, saucer is green stamp supervit '71
---------
16/5/14
Couldn't resist this Reflections Demi.

The cup has impressed what appears to be "277".
The base stamp belongs to the saucer.

---------
23/5/14
Below: One of my Blue Tango demi-saucers has found a new home under Kat's cup.
[29/714 I have my own Blue Tango demi-duos now]

Demitasses branded "Excella Ware" here:

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t3711-crown-lynn-excella-ware-children-s-cup-and-saucer

AND ...
More demitasse topics:

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t4857-doris-bird-demitasse-duo-x-2

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t5102-chl-demitasse-vitrified-star-mark-overstamped-59

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t5053-rnzn-navy-demitasse-wr-ward-room

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t4077-3-different-demitasse-cups-including-ascot-galaxy-and-riviera

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/t4551-south-pacific-cups-are-in-fatbums-are-out

Oh well another theory busted and blown out of the water KAPOW !!!
Just when I thought we were getting somewhere too   

Your other theory could still work Ev, although it seems counter-intuitive.

Vit = 773 cup, 734 saucer
E/W = 774 saucer, 859 cup

It just doesn't FEEL right.
The numbers are all over the place.

I must track down one of the different wee cups, the mini-fatbottom.
I'm not imagining things here am I, Ev: there is such a cup isn't there?

Does your knowledge of backstamp dates tell you that the early DB cup (photo above) should be a three digit?

One other thing I wonder about, as I don't know when three digit numbering started.
As far as I know the Paris cups have no number, and I think the earliest heavy cup (pre the 700s) didn't. Three of my clear glaze white E/W demitasse cups have no backstamps (although this may simply be because the are too small for a 1948-55 stamp) and one has a circle stamp giving it a date of 1943 to 1950.

Would the early E/W demitasse cups definitely have had a number or were they just known to all as "coffee cups"?

Three digit shape numbers were being used on triple glazed vases very early.  They sometimes have the shape number and fraction numbers.
The four digit shapes began in early 1964 and the fat frumpy handle shows up in that 1968 advert for the new vitrified ware shapes that is on Val Monk's blog.
I will take the demi shapes out of the gallery for now, as we are none the wiser at this stage.
Paris ware was first made in the Ambrico days.
Do you mean the small South Pacific cups? Like the IGA cup and saucer?

Yes, I think so. I guess the IGA were E/W so maybe Kat's blue demi is the one for the Blue Tango saucers. I'm pretty sure that it will turn out to be vit but we have not seen a stamp for it yet.

I thought the ones in the gallery were pretty safe.
Just the earlier ones causing trouble.

There were changes to the shape of Crown Lynn demitasse saucers over the years and with the arrival on my latest today I am starting to make some sense of it.

Four different demitasse saucer shapes.
(This is a lousy photo and one day when there is enough light I will replace it.)
1 E/W early 2 vit early
3 E/W later 4 vit later

As you can see from the photo earthenware (1) and vitrified (2) demitasse (coffee cup) saucers started out the same shape. The e/w is wider, the vit thicker. The same applies to the cups.

Using backstamps for dating we see the vit saucer changes some time after 1955 (48-55 stamp), but before 1962 (star on vit stamp replaced with numbers by 1962 at latest). Note the addition of a rolled edge. The new shape is a couple of mm wider too.

The later earthenware saucer is the same coupe shape as an 805, just smaller. A teal e/w duo marked South Pacific on trademe has a minifatbum cup on an early shaped saucer. Supposing the earthenware saucers changed at the same time that would date this duo, and thus the South Pacific mark, 1955 or early. No guarantees though that both earthenware and vitrified saucers changed at the same time.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Pottery-glass/auction-739225030.htm

One result of the shape change is that later saucers, earthenware and vitrified, have the same diameter. (E/W got smaller, vit got bigger.)

I think the change of shape in the vitrified cups to the chunky handle and the phasing out of 773 shaped earthenware cups to be completely replaced by the minifatbum (859?) may have come later than the saucer change. Just a hunch. I'll keep working on this.

My latest vit duo has the later saucer and early cup shapes, but both pieces have the single star vit stamp. Match or mismatch? I just don't know.

7/6/14 notes to me.
Curiously I have just noticed shape 745 "small hotel cup vit" which is a lot closer to the 734 hotel saucer vit, which is the vit demi-saucer. It could of course belong to the 743 hotel saucer, just two numbers away. I haven't checked the numbers for an update on vit demitasse yet, but I'm just wondering if mabe the 773 has been misrepresented in the various notes at vit and is in fact the E/W, which would make sense considering the 774 is the E/W demi-saucer.

x2

I was trying to figure out what the 745 small hotel cup would look like.
Then I noticed the different handles as mentioned above, on the 773. Which is confusing.

The rounder handle like on these 2 looks to be very old compare to the others .



Anyways......
Small coffee cups can be either the demitasse or fat bum shape but smaller.

So would the 745 be a vitrified version of the fat bum as we don't seem to have one? Or the other shape.

Any thoughts anyone... in the fat bum demitasse shape I have grey. pink. Plum. And yellow none that feel vitrified.
I have grouped the same shapes  together so you can see what I mean.

Janice, I believe that the e/w and vit demis were made with the same mould, which is why originally there appears to have been only one shape number.

Interesting observation re the earthenware handles, something I had not noticed.

The numbers got mucked around when the new shapes appeared, the vit demi with the robust handle and the 859 cup, and new saucers too. At that time we were well into number reuse so things got a bit separated.

We still have at least one cup shape looking for a number, the Carlton cup shape with the pointy handle.

Possibly more to say but mst go.