Shapes 05 Salisbury, 05 Auckland Museum and 09 Auckland Museum puzzler

Here are the facts to hand.
Heather has a Salisbury vase with 5 stamped on the base

The Sparrow Industries photo from the Auckland Museum show the 5 as this shape ..

And just to complicate matters the Sparrow Industies photo from the Auckland Museum show the 9 shape to be the same shape as Heather's Salisbury 5 !!

Which one is correct? Does anyone have any further facts to help us sort this one out?
This has been chatted about many times in the chatbox .... but has not yet been resolved.

The Sparrow photos were taken for Ambrico and the show the numbers assigned by the manufacturer to the shapes. When marked these numbers were impressed into the bases with a pretty consistent typeface. There are other numbers that were stamped onto the bases in black or less often blue, probably by Salisbury, and these usually match the Ambrico shape numbers.

My theory is that the Ambrico shape 5 didn't lend itself to the Salisbury style of decoration so wasn't used. Salisbury seems to have re-numbered Ambrico shape 9 as 5.

Maybe we also need a series of base photos which should impressed marks as well as one that shows the stamped marks to see if there are other inconsistencies?

I saw a bowl shape like the Sparrow 5 yesterday .... it had Salisbury like painted leaves etc on it.
There was no number - but the bowl looked like half of a Shape 36 as it had the same feet!
It was $9 so I didn't get it. Now if it had a number I would have gladly paid that for it

Marcus's Rocket Vase is a shape 5 or 9 .... it has fraction marks on it ...

I'm not quite sure what base photos you want put up Tony... can you enlighten moi please

If we're ever going to get to the bottom of the puzzler we need more info. I've always thought that when Crown Lynn, in its various modes, put shape numbers on pieces they were impressed into the base. I don't know whether this was done as part of the slip-casting process or afterwards.

The various black or blue numbers that appear on some Crown Lynn shapes look to have been done after bisque firing and applied with a stamp of some kind.

If we were able to get photos of the coloured numbers we might be able to see if there's a complete numerical sequence, what it starts with, what it ends with and how consistent it is with the run of numbers recorded by Sparrow.

We do have some photos of the manually stamped Salisbury pieces. These would have been high fired without any glaze, but suitable for painting over. As the Salisbury stamps would have been put on by someone.... they could have made the age old 'human error' - which is my theory by the way
Later Crown Lynn moulds have the shape number in the mould. Earlier shapes appear to have the shape number scratched on manually. I will see what I can find around the site re the stamped on numbers and put them in here.... at least it's a start.

I can only find two stamped on numbers .... 5 and 18 in this topic ..

http://newzealandpottery.forumotion.net/crown-lynn-numbering-enigma-f28/ink-stamping-t163.htm

Crikey why can't I make some reference as to where I find things ....!!!!?
Re my comment about the stamps being put on using underglaze ... maybe Gail Henry?
As this infers that Crown Lynn stamped the numbers on the wares.

We'll have to track down that reference to hand-stamped underglaze numbers. I'd thought that the coloured numbers were applied to fired blanks so as likely to be done by Salisbury as at Crown Lynn.

A member here has made a reference to the numbers - maybe on a topic about one of Heather's Salisbury pieces?

I saw a stamped shape 15 today ......

Yes Rocke316 asked narna if his shape 11 had a stamp on it.
I hope Rocke sees this topic and can add some info .....

Tony said that he saw a shape 9 on the weekend.
I'm hoping that he will enlighten us as to which shape he saw ...... *please*

I saw a piece of the shape numbered as 9 by Amalgamated that Sparrow took a photo of ca. 1945 I think we're confusing things by having the Amalgamated shape 5 and the Amalgamated shape 9 with a 5 stamped on it alongside each other.

Those Sparrow photos give a continuous sequence of the early numbered shapes and the Salisbury decorated one is not numbered in accordance with this sequence. It's an example of itself not evidence of anything else.

Yes I'm inclined to agree with you Tony.
Will leave this thread to refer to and remove the Salisbury 05 pic.
I have yet to see a shape 9 that has the 9 stamped on the base though .... strange.
Also the only Salisbury inked stamp numbers that I've come across actually match the Crown Lynn shape numbers, except for the 5 that Heather has, but will let it rest unless further info comes to hand.

I wonder if the Ambrico shape 5 didn't suit what Salisbury used them for as it was a bowl rather than a vase? Or being Crown Lynn maybe they just changed the numbers after the photo was taken? Just to complicate things?

A vase the same as Heather's has surfaced on Trademe and has a 5 on the base too
http://www.trademe.co.nz/antiques-collectables/art-deco-retro/home-décor/vases-jugs/auction-528064383.htm

Another vase with 5 stamped on the base has turned up on TM
http://www.trademe.co.nz/a.aspx?id=715954580

We haven't come to any conclusions about these shapes ....YET!

Could this be the "other" 5 shape?

If it had a number on the base, I would go along with it, but it is a possibility at this point. Thanks.

Here are two Salisbury number 5 and one Crown Lynn shape 9.

Ev, You asked for some more pictures with the printed numbers on the base.
This Salisbury Nr 3 has a very, very faint Nr 3 on the base. Hubby didn't edit more colour to it because I thought you needed to see the "true" stamp. It is a blue horizontal 3 in the middle of the right hand side.

Re the so called shape 9 that is glazed and has the old Made in NZ stamp ....
does that have fraction numbers on the base?
Is the 9 part of the fraction numbers .... or separate?
It's rather crucial to this puzzle and unfortunately it's hard to see.

Inside the circle stamp there is the 24 over 5 and then further along but still inside the circle the 9. I'll get hubby to take a close up tomorrow.

The close up fraction marks.

Hello Ev, some more pictures of Crown Lynn, Salisbury vases with the faint blue stamps. "Warning" they are hard to make out. We now have a UV torch and on some pictures hubby has used it to show the blue mark better.

This No 1 is very, very faint under the penciled $6.(I didn't pay $6)

It might be a coincidence, but I have noticed that often there must have been some sort of roundish sticker on top of the stamped blue number. May be it was a sticker that Salisbury added straight away or a price sticker from the shop that sold the vases?

Thanks for all of the photos haselnuss. I will check them out later when I get home.
The greeny glazed possible shape 9 appears to be part of the Fraction mark. The large number seems to me to be the base glaze and the two one over the other represent the two other colors used that give such wonderful results.