Shedding some light on the Genuine Ironstone backstamp ..

Came across a set of Genuine Ironstone today that still had the original box with it.
The plates etc just had the Genuine Ironstone backstamp, but the box was stamped 494 Kathy and it had Oyster in block script below this.
Strangely the pattern which I had never seen before was of green daisies, with lots of grass as a background.
The Database has Kathy Green d494 and Kathy Oyster d494 ..... ??
Woolworths Wiri was on the box and a several digit number, which the shop interpreted as a date ending in 1995 .... not sure about this as Crown Lynn closed in 1989 ...?
The shop is called Southern Traders and trade as southerntraders on TradeMe and when I mentioned the set they said they may be listing it soon.
It is missing a couple of dinner plates, but looks as if it has never been used.
If they list it I will add a link here.
Perhaps Genuine Ironstone was a backstamp used on wares for Woolworths?
Not sure really, but will keep an eye out for more. I would have been happy to buy the box ...... or just one plate

Ev ,
Woolworths Wiri on the carton may refer to the warehouse that was and may still be a major warehouse for the Woolworths/Deka companies and their present owners .
It used to be to the south of Manakau City.

Thanks so much Jonno, as I was racking my brain trying to find a Woolworths in Manukau. I could recall Deka, who were in the Manukau City Centre, but didn't realise that they were part of Woolworths.

Glad to be of assistance Ev, if you want to get a better handle on these companies try googling:-
Deka(New Zealand) , Woolworths_(New_Zealand)
to see the connections between these two companies plus the original L.D. Nathan owners and McKenzies and Farmers, all big sellers of crockery including Crown Lynn.

Woo hooooo I found a bowl in the Kathy Green or Oyster today at an Antique shop in Devonport. Had to part with my little finger to get it, but I may never see another again! Pic asap

southerntraders have listed this set ..... but no mention of Kathy d494, they only mention Oyster
I was hoping they would have a pic of the interesting side of the box ..... but no :' (
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=490114183

Ev,
The carton is the same as the one that contained my set of Symphony Cream
d24O60 and I agree it is a pity there is no pic of the label but you have already noted that it was originally sent to Woolworths Wiri.

The Ironstone mark is printed on both cartons but my d24060 set is backstamped in black not green and simply says the name and Made in New Zealand in the case of the pieces that have the name , and the little CL floral emblem on the pieces that are not named and have no pattern ie saucers. The use of the same carton with ironstone printed on it does not resolve the question in my opinion, it simply
could have been that they had a surplus of these cartons designed to take a 20 piece lunch set.

So we are no further ahead in this puzzle about the use of this name , Monk p161
refers to it as a marketing word for earthenware and the 'genuine' may well be just a marketing add-on. I also see that there is 'Grafton Ironstone' used on a plate I have an example of a range that was exported to Greece, just another use of the word to suggest that this is a high quality product that can be expected to give good service?

To the best of my knowledge it was never used in conjunction with Vitrified or Super Vitrified Ware which we know is a superior product fired at a higher temperature and was supplied to institutions needing a hard wearing product.

I asked Alan Topham about the name Genuine Ironstone.
He said that he came up with it himself and that it was used when they didn't want to use the Crown Lynn name ....?
Val Monk's dates for this backstamp are from the late 1960's to 1970's or early 1980's .... so southerntrader has got those dates right.
For some reason I have a strong feeling that Woolworths and McKenzies could have been the recipients with this backstamp........?
Not one of those pieces in southerntrader's listing has the pattern name ....
all have the Genuine Ironstone stamp.
There are so many pieces around with just the Genuine Ironstone stamp on them, so they were produced in large quantities and my thought was that only the box that they came in had the pattern name and number, as is the case with Kathy 494 ...?
Perhaps so that the retailer would know what was inside the box....?
Thoughts, merely thoughts - always thinking

I forgot this morning that of course Apollo is branded as 'Genuine New Zealand Ironstone' and noted as being released in late 1969 or 1970. First for the North American market but described as "One of CL's most consistent sellers in plain white" ( ref p102/103 Monk) .
So Genuine Ironstone unlikely to be exclusive to chain stores in my opinion.

Do you have any thoughts as to where Genuine Ironstone may have been retailed then?
The Kathy 494/Genuine Ironstone went to the Woolworths warehouse at Wiri, which means that the company retailed this brand name doesn't it?

I spent some time this morning going through the 70+ pages of Decoration Advices with the hope of finding some clues, as there are many entries that relate to the backstamp eg. Kelston, Crown Lynn, Avondale etc. There were only a few entries under Ironstone, from the late 70's early 80's, so it didn't help much at all as copious amounts of tableware has the backstamp.
Perhaps there are other records at the Museum that would help?
There are sales records and export records that I haven't even looked at yet.

Here is the double pic of my Symphony Cream Carton, the upper is a detail of the label with reference numbers and order number and is a pre-printed label for 20 Piece Dinner Set, so a fairly common set, there would have been others.
The lower Pic is of another side of the carton clearly stating that is Genuine Ironstone Dinnerware and this repeats on other sides of the carton. The Kiwi Symbol , created for the NZ Manufacturers Association about 1965, makes it quite clear that is a NZ product.

The example you saw had the pattern name and number on the label mine simply has the pattern name and some other numbers as noted above.

Well have another careful look at the carton tomorrow to see if I can glean any other clues. This is better than Agatha Christie

Jonno, there were many, many entries in the Deco Advices that said Indent.
There are several meanings for that word on dictionary.com, but I can't work out which one applies to these Crown Lynn records. Can you help at all?

Gosh! haven't heard or read that word for a long time , my Oxford NZ says :-
1. Place an indent for goods or stores
2. An official order for goods or stores
I seem to recall that it was more often used for orders placed for goods to be delivered at a later date such as an official order for goods or stores. to suit a seasonal demand expected by the retailer /buyer or orders placed well ahead of the expected time of arrival from an overseas manufacturer. For instance printed cotton fabrics intended for release as garments manufactured in NZ in the spring would be indented to arrive say 3 months before the release date and the indent could be placed perhaps 9 months before the intended release date.

Have had a close look at my carton and there is not much more info. but for the record
Customer O/N is 8833714
Confirmation No is 20475
The Carton was made by UEB Industries Auckland (Mangere) A374 from 21112 Corrugated board, two layers of corrugation with three layers of kraft.
The internal packing was a square of corrugated board at the base a series of dimpled kraft paper squares to separate the flatware (prior to bubble wrap)
and a hoop of board to enclose the small plates and saucers so that the cups could be fitted in the four corners.

2 Sides are printed as the photo above one has the order details as above and the third says Quality Ironstone.

Thank you so much for your general knowledge Jonno
Yes that all makes sense to me now regarding Crown Lynn.
Thought I would have a closer look at the Indent entries and what do you know ....
I found Kathy Oyster d494 looking back at me !!!! This was in 1978.
From around 1979 this column was left empty.

Another Genuine Ironstone listing that includes the box with the pattern name and number on the box.
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=509639453
Genuine Ironstone seems to me to be the brand name....?
Not sure if I have this pattern in the database ..... will check later.

Thanks for spotting that Ev,
Interesting that the carton is the same as the one that I have from Symphony Cream but this one is in much better condition with very clear details. I am not sure about the second number stamped in blue. Could this be the works order number for the production of this particular run of this pattern and set I wonder?

Pattern D196 Honeycomb Genuine Ironstone is very much like a number of other very similar designs with concentric rings on a beige/brown base that I have but none are Genuine Ironstone and none have a name. The width and sequence of rings differs but all would be an acceptable match on a table. They are variously backstamped D439, d202 and Design Line in a ring.

Honeycomb has a distinct sequence of rings , One Broad, Three Narrow, One Broad and one narrow from outer to inner for the larger oval plates, all the other pieces have only two narrow rings between including the cups .

I found Honeycomb already on the Database .....
These ring patterns would be simple to do on the Murray Curvex wouldn't they?
I keep both Alphabetical and Numerical patterns records for easy research and can tell you that d439 is Jupiter and is in the Gallery Jonno. Can't tell what the 202 is as it's not Safari and it's not suzette brown..... both of which have that number.
There are many 'ringed' patterns in the Patterns book at the Museum, but as they are all so similar it's too hard for me to draw or remember them .... you have given me an idea how to do it though thanks Jonno.

The term Ironstone was "coined" as CL increased its exports and was looking for Sales/Marketing advantages. It was felt this implied a stronger, tougher product than earthenware. If fact factories were judged by the whiteness of their products so the very idea of associating iron, which produced brown colour and spots, was strange to the factory guys.

At the same time there was a tightening up on the number of backstamps used and Genuine Ironstone was meant to became the generic for non CL patterns.

As you can see this was carried over to the packaging and to persuade the powers to be that we needed colour printing was a major coup, "Whats wrong with the plain brown we have used for years."

For export the term Indent meant a large order that would be shipped directly to the purchaser, usually a major retailer's distribution center. These were often "one off" designs as they were always wanting something different. We used to impress the Aussie buyers with the speed in developing new designs. We would fly them over to Auckland arriving in time for a dinner at some where like Tony's then to the Mon Desir right on the beach at Takapuna. Next morning a factory tour and showing them available designs. If none of the murray curvex were suitable suggestions would be made re other colours that could be used. Then off to Rotorua for the night and when they got back next day fired samples would be ready for inspection.

The Apollo shape was developed for North America and positioned to compete directly with J Bro's Athena. They had given exclusive distribution to some major retailers so there was an opening in the market to supply the other large chain stores. In my mind it was a far better shape and we did very well with it in Canada.

Crown Lynn was unusual in that it produced 2 ceramic bodies using the same kilns, forming and decorating equipment for both. These were Earthenware and Vitrified. Usually these would have been produced by separate factories. But I wouldn't class vitrified as superior. Yes it was stronger by the nature of being vitrified but that made it harder to produce and especially to decorate.

Thanks Dale,
Great information from someone who was there.

My set was purchased at David Jones (owned by Woolworths group) in c1985. DJs, as it’s colloquially known in AUST, is a major department store.

Ev wrote:Do you have any thoughts as to where Genuine Ironstone may have been retailed then?
The Kathy 494/Genuine Ironstone went to the Woolworths warehouse at Wiri, which means that the company retailed this brand name doesn't it?

I spent some time this morning going through the 70+ pages of Decoration Advices with the hope of finding some clues, as there are many entries that relate to the backstamp eg. Kelston, Crown Lynn, Avondale etc. There were only a few entries under Ironstone, from the late 70's early 80's, so it didn't help much at all as copious amounts of tableware has the backstamp.
Perhaps there are other records at the Museum that would help?
There are sales records and export records that I haven't even looked at yet.